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Thread: Is It Ever Okay To Criticize Israel?

  1. #46
    Democratic Warrior dr.strangelove's Avatar
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by N.U. Click here to enlarge
    And would you care to address the possibility of Geneva Conventions violations that have gone on? Last I checked, Schools, churches, and hospitals are not to be fired upon and it seems Israel has blasted no fewer than 6 UN schools in Gaza.

    If you are going to discuss a purely "legal" issue as to whether a nation has violated the terms of a treaty, be prepared for a great deal of very boring reading. The issue of weather or not Israel qualifies as an "occupying power" as defined by the 4th GC or if its authority in the territories is based on the international law of "belligerent occupation" and falls under the Hague. There is a massive amount of research on the topic and several Courts have looked at this issue, almost universally agreeing that the 4th GC does not apply to this situation. but this is an international law discussion, not what we should be talking about. Which is whether its just for Israel to take these actions. I think its both legal and just, but I think that is where we should concentrate the discussion.

    If you would prefer to talk about the legalities and which parts of international law apply though, I am game.
    Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room.

  2. #47
    Democratic Warrior dr.strangelove's Avatar
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by webhead Click here to enlarge
    This is reality, Icky:

    Those living in the Gaza Strip can live in peace by agreeing that israel has a right to exist and sign a peace treaty with Israel, and promise to prevent rockets and other arms from being fired on Israel.

    Failure to agree to a peace deal with Israel means that there will always be armed conflict between Israel and those living in Gaza.

    85% of Israelis support what Israel is doing.

    And 0% care about what you or I say about the matter.
    The issue is more complicated than that. Israel has seized land that it claims it won ina war. It will not cede it back. The Palestinians would probably take all of the land the UN planned to create the Palestenian State with and take joint control over Israel. Israel would never agree. Legally, it is probably correct. It won a conflict and would first want to sign a treaty keeping the land it won as part of any long term peace.

    The issue of Jerusalem is also goign to make any serious peace treaty impossible unless a UN lead group agree to take control of the city with both Islamic and Jewish "equal" participation and control. That will never happen.
    Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room.

  3. #48
    Democratic Warrior N.U.'s Avatar
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dr.strangelove Click here to enlarge
    If you are going to discuss a purely "legal" issue as to whether a nation has violated the terms of a treaty, be prepared for a great deal of very boring reading. The issue of weather or not Israel qualifies as an "occupying power" as defined by the 4th GC or if its authority in the territories is based on the international law of "belligerent occupation" and falls under the Hague. There is a massive amount of research on the topic and several Courts have looked at this issue, almost universally agreeing that the 4th GC does not apply to this situation. but this is an international law discussion, not what we should be talking about. Which is whether its just for Israel to take these actions. I think its both legal and just, but I think that is where we should concentrate the discussion.

    If you would prefer to talk about the legalities and which parts of international law apply though, I am game.
    I am not remotely well-versed enough to discuss nuances of international law. My familiarity with GC is only from what I learned when I was in the military, which makes my knowledge base there severely limited.
    "Illegal immigrants are not battle tanks." - Bertram
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  4. #49
    Democratic Warrior N.U.'s Avatar
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dr.strangelove Click here to enlarge
    The issue is more complicated than that. Israel has seized land that it claims it won ina war. It will not cede it back. The Palestinians would probably take all of the land the UN planned to create the Palestenian State with and take joint control over Israel. Israel would never agree. Legally, it is probably correct. It won a conflict and would first want to sign a treaty keeping the land it won as part of any long term peace.

    The issue of Jerusalem is also goign to make any serious peace treaty impossible unless a UN lead group agree to take control of the city with both Islamic and Jewish "equal" participation and control. That will never happen.
    Didn't Tom Clancy devise a "fix" for the Jerusalem problem by having the Swiss take over the role of protecting the city in one of his books?
    "Illegal immigrants are not battle tanks." - Bertram
    "America out of Liberty; Try back later."- neios
    http://www.mycodedontstink.com/solutions/index.php

  5. #50
    Democratic Warrior dr.strangelove's Avatar
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by N.U. Click here to enlarge
    I am not remotely well-versed enough to discuss nuances of international law. My familiarity with GC is only from what I learned when I was in the military, which makes my knowledge base there severely limited.

    Its a treaty, as such it has specific triggering events and terms that must be met. Its completely boring, but interesting to legal geeks like me, as to what area of international law applies.

    But teh issue which really should be discussed it weather or not Israel SHOULD be doing what they are doing. They may be completely within their rights and may not be committing any war crimes, but is it still the ebst course of action. Many would say no. I think there are indeed better ways to do this. But lets be honest, both sides of thsi conflict are acting terribly. Its war, and war is made of terrible acts. I think a lot of progressives side with Hammas and the Palestinians because they are the "little guy," but they are completely wrong for what they are doing. Storing weapons and soldiers in a school that is deemed off limits to weapons and soldiers is terrible. It puts the lives of children at great risk. Firing explosives into these schools is likewise terrible, since you know there are innocent children there. Which is more wrong, its hard to say. Israel's position is that they will strike at illegal weapons and soldiers whereever they are, so don;t put them in schools.
    Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room.

  6. #51
    Democratic Warrior dr.strangelove's Avatar
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Icky Click here to enlarge
    Web... FWIW, I tend to be somewhat sympathetic to Israel... they are in a tough spot. Hamas has basically made it their "Mission Statement" to wipe Israel off the map. They'd be launching bad-assed missiles into Israel, if they had them! They'd gladly bomb Israeli hospitals and schools... They want nothing more than to see Israel gone!
    They kinda remind me of the Republican party v. Obama :P

    If somebody had stated clearly that they were intent on destroying me.... yeah... I might destroy them first, if I were able. Gotta be honest.
    that is what it comes down to. HAmmas does not recognize Israel's right to exist, so Israel must destroy Hammas. Both sides are wrong in this.
    Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room.

  7. #52
    Democratic Warrior dr.strangelove's Avatar
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by N.U. Click here to enlarge
    Didn't Tom Clancy devise a "fix" for the Jerusalem problem by having the Swiss take over the role of protecting the city in one of his books?
    The Swiss and Israel don't get along very well lately. The Swiss tried to develop their own plan for peace, but worked with some opposition leaders in Israel instead of the government, which pissed off most nations. Most nations have no tolerance for another country making foreign relations proposals to people not in the government. It would be like the Swiss working with Karl Rove for a treaty that is best for the US. I can;t see Israel workign with teh Swiss for some time.

    But the idea of Jerusalem as an international City under the control of an unbiased force might work.
    Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room.

  8. #53
    Webhead, LLC webhead's Avatar
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    Jerusalem, the "Kingdom Of Heaven", can never be peacefully controlled by a third, neutralparty. It will allways be a reiigious area claimed by several religions, Jews, Muslims, Christians. There can be no real peace without acceptable terms by each side.

    Israel is seeking to eliminate, for now, Hamas as a military threat. Hamas will recruit and rearm, and in a few years there will be another battle, which Hamas will lose. In the meantime, Israel must show everyone that Israel is intent to fight those that attack Israelis. Israel cannot stand still and absorb the Hamas rocket attacks for it would prompt others to attack Israel as well.

    There is no way to have peace until one side is driven into the sea.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Democratic Warrior N.U.'s Avatar
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by webhead Click here to enlarge
    Jerusalem, the "Kingdom Of Heaven", can never be peacefully controlled by a third, neutralparty. It will allways be a reiigious area claimed by several religions, Jews, Muslims, Christians. There can be no real peace without acceptable terms by each side.

    Israel is seeking to eliminate, for now, Hamas as a military threat. Hamas will recruit and rearm, and in a few years there will be another battle, which Hamas will lose. In the meantime, Israel must show everyone that Israel is intent to fight those that attack Israelis. Israel cannot stand still and absorb the Hamas rocket attacks for it would prompt others to attack Israel as well.

    There is no way to have peace until one side is driven into the sea.
    The only solution is to nuke Jerusalem from orbit so that NOBODY can ever control it. (I kid, I kid)
    "Illegal immigrants are not battle tanks." - Bertram
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  10. #55
    Webhead, LLC webhead's Avatar
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by N.U. Click here to enlarge
    The only solution is to nuke Jerusalem from orbit so that NOBODY can ever control it. (I kid, I kid)
    A dirty bomb is certainly a possibility! If there is a nuclear exchange, I think it will occur in the Middle East.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Democratic Warrior N.U.'s Avatar
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    The US just sent a message to Isreal by not vetoing a non-binding critique on Israel's current settlement position (More and in more areas belligerent to them).
    DemocraticWarrior is not a registered Political Action Committee, nor is it a registered Non-Profit Organization. Donations to DemocraticWarrior are not tax-deductible for federal income tax purposes.
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    Democratic Warrior wliberty's Avatar
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    Web head and NU Glad to see you here. I've missed you!
    DemocraticWarrior is not a registered Political Action Committee, nor is it a registered Non-Profit Organization. Donations to DemocraticWarrior are not tax-deductible for federal income tax purposes.
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